The Gordo Blogga

Formerly known as "Untying the Gordian Knot"

Tuesday, May 17, 2005

Declining population in Germany

Natality and it's impact on societies and quality of life fascinates me. This article explores a growing trend in Germany to not have children.

posted by z @ 4:18 AM  

10 Comments:

  • At 11:37 AM, Blogger Rama said…

    We have become a world where we only care about our own individual life path, and less about family. I want to have children, but also see that all the plans I've laid out for myself don't include them, and some of them I don't want to give up (thus, a deterrent). It's really a shame though. I look at people that are over 30 and without kids and wonder what they've done in their lives. Those with children I see as having contributed to society and the ideals of family.

     

  • At 10:06 AM, Blogger liz said…

    What do i see in "declining population in germany?" - i could move to germany. Because they're gonna have better childcare setup, better social support for people who want careers and families, if they want people to have kids ... Plus they have public transportation! ...

     

  • At 10:43 AM, Blogger Rama said…

    Good point Liz. Alright everyone, let's head to Deutschland!

     

  • At 7:09 PM, Blogger z said…

    Sam - so, do you plan to have kids?

    It seems to me that this problem appears only in industrialized nations where high quality of life enables people to seek pleasures in life not available in most poor nations. So, some people choose to substitute children for other interests.

    The great irony is that ultimately this shift causes problems as the economy suffers from a lack of workforce. The gov't at that point will try to boost the natality rates through financial and social incentives, but in most cases it will also allow entry to immigrants in order to allow for an immediate boost to the workforce. This ends up generating great friction as the citizens perceive the new arrivals as competition for financial and social status.

    Funny how it works, huh? The scary thing is that this very friction is what caused the rise of the far right in Europe in the last ten years. So, now we just have to wait and see what happens.

    The perfect solution is most likely a good balance between childbearing incentives and consistent limited immigration (with a strong focus on social integration), although an argument could be made that childbearing incentives could work on their own.

     

  • At 8:40 AM, Blogger Rama said…

    I agree Z. Very well thought out answer. It's interesting how just one choice can directly and indirectly affect so many other aspects of life.

    And yes, I plan on having kids. I want 6.

     

  • At 3:05 PM, Blogger z said…

    Thanks Sam. Yes, it can be dizzying.

    Wow!! *lol* And I thought I was going out on a limb by thinking 3-4. ;)

     

  • At 9:33 AM, Blogger Rama said…

    YOu know... I need a starting line-up for a hockey team. Did I mention I'm only having boys? I have spoken, and so it will be.

    My colleague Frank, who is from Germany, said that those who do have kids are all in the welfare system, and therefore have little opportunity to become productive citizens. He says Germans care more about their own luxuries than reproduction. Sad really...

     

  • At 10:48 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The last couple posts you've had on this topic have really awakened me to the impact of birth rates and their effects.
    I've been discussing some of these issues with this french guy I work with, and your last comment about social integration hit a chord.
    Western Europe is having a very hard time with integration of primarily muslim immigrants, the killings in denmark, the recent french law banning head-scarves in schools.
    This got myself and the french guy onto the topic of cultural relativism, which Vessey always admonished me for.
    As much as I try and understand other cultures and their values, at what point do their values clash with mine enough that it becomes unacceptable for me to tolerate, and then, what does one do about it?
    Discuss; with relation to social integration:)

     

  • At 3:48 PM, Blogger z said…

    That's a great question - it forced me to think about a solution rather than just ponder the problem.

    Yes, the problem is certainly fairly widespread. Most countries today experience it in one way or another, but the biggest problems seem to come from Western societies grappling with certain aspects of Islam, most notably the Sharia.

    It's a fundamental problem - how do you tolerate someone who holds and practices views that are in a complete opposition to your own?

    As with most things in life a compromise is necessary. The dominant culture needs to be as accomodating and accepting as possible while drawing clear boundaries as to what it cannot and will not accept. In other words, the host country needs to act like a parent - accepting and loving, yet consistent and strong.

    A country should clearly define and codify their basic beliefs and principles. Anyone settling there needs to accept that they need to yield to these basic principles should there be a conflict with their own beliefs. Strong socialization in schools would ensure that children (natives and immigrants) are integrated into the society and taught to respect these basic principles.

    Ultimately we cannot please everyone. Some sacrifices need to be made by all. The natives need to accept and "embrace" the newcomers, as well as tolerate their customs and beliefs which do not contradict with their coded principles. At the same time the immigrants need to understand that their newly found home, while accepting and tolerant, has certain rules they need to respect.

    Thoughts? Opinions? Rebuttals?

     

  • At 9:01 AM, Blogger nell said…

    Heck no. It's my summer break for another few days. I'll start thinking again after that. Reluctantly.

     

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