The Gordo Blogga

Formerly known as "Untying the Gordian Knot"

Thursday, September 16, 2004

Useful torture?

Slate columnist Fred Kaplan explores the purported usefulness of torture in his latest article "Does Torture Work?" - http://slate.msn.com/id/2106702/. He proposes that it is time for a serious discussion on whether torture is actually useful and whether it should be allowed under certain circumstances.

Seeking finality on an issue is quite logical, especially in light of the Abu Ghraib scandal. Lack of a policy with clear rules and guidelines appears to be one of (if not) the major cause(s) for the despicable accounts carried on in that prison by the US military. The current administration relaxed these rules in order to make it easier to obtain information and thus legitimized certain kinds of torture. This opened a can of worms. If certain kinds of limited torture were legitimate and it was not made extremely clear to everyone what they were the situation becomes a perfect setup for actual torture to occur.

There are a number of reasons the U.S. (nor any other respectable country) cannot have a serious examination of torture. Most of these points can be summed up in one word - politics. Doing something in secret is one thing, but broadcasting it to the world is an entirely different matter.

Neighbor relations aside it is still an impossibility to carry on a real discussion on the merits of torture. The problem comes down to a basic self-defense mechanism built into people. The bottom line is that even the most ardent anti-torture activist would think twice if personally involved. The self-defense mechanism ultimately comes before ideals. There are certainly exceptions, but nature has a strong way of promoting the self-defense gene ahead of idealism.

A really easy way to examine this problem would be to ask the families of those affected by the 9/11 tragedy whether they would support torture in circumstances where it might prevent another 9/11 from happening. Another way to look at it would be to think whether we would support torture if the lives of our loved ones depended on it.

Our security aparatus applies the same logic when defending us from threats. We can all look away in disgust at what was done to those poor Iraqis at Abu Ghraib, but I don't think very many people would mind (especially not the ones who might have been affected) should a "little" torture happen in order to avoid another 9/11.

It is very easy to say that torture is ineffective due to the fact that under extreme duress people will confess to anything. This is where Mr. Kaplan raises a very interesting question - why has torture continued to be used for centuries if it is not an effective way of getting information?

Ultimately it doesn't matter whether torture is effective or not as long as there is belief that it could be. And let's face it... that belief is not going to go away. A person witholding information judged as important is increasingly more likely to be pressured to turn it over with every passing minute. As time passes the urgency increases and thus the pressure methods get more severe. Ultimately there is no way to avoid torture in these circumstances.

Sadly, as long as there is human conflict torture will remain a grim, unspoken reality. In order to reduce its occurence every government has an obligation to enact and promote strong anti-torture policies. The United States cannot be an exception and needs to immediately denounce torture and withdraw its legalese justification of the same. The State Department may otherwise have to place the US on its list of human rights abusers next year.

3 Comments:

  • At 7:31 PM, Blogger nell said…

    I don't necessarily agree with you on this issue. I think it is possible for peace-loving people to never condone torture regardless of the situation. I hope I am one of those myself (but, as you point out, you never know until it happens to you). I happen to think there is no just cause for war or violence and certainly no just cause for torture. For how can committing an act of violence on someone or a group prevent more violence? Paulo Friere in "Pedagogy of the Oppressed" claimed that when the oppressed revolt in violence against the oppressors, it is an "act of love" and in fact necessary to bring about change. I don't agree. In any case, even if you do agree with Freire, the US would always be the oppressor and therefore would 'deserve' any of the violence committed against it. So it's a lose-lose situation for us Americans.

    I am not going to be idealistic. As long as there are people that think some things are more important than human rights, there will be torture, genocide, war, etc. It's not a rosy picture. But I don't think its quite hopeless, either. This is why we need governing bodies that belong to no nation and bow to no nation. No single nation - especially the US - should have so much power as to disregard human rights.

     
  • At 7:29 PM, Blogger z said…

    Awesome! I'm stoked that you disagree Nellie. I don't purport to know all the answers and am always open to criticism and new ideas.

    First of all let me say that I completely agree with you that an independent world body should govern the world. We would all loose something, but ultimately more would be gained. Unfortunately I don't believe that is likely to happen until we encounter an alien civilization. Europe is a great example of this... it took an empire outside its borders to nudge them into unification.

    It seems to me that we both agree that violence should be avoided at all costs, but we do disagree on whether there is an excuse/justification for its use.

    A simple (and perhaps cheap) example to use would be to ask what happens when one is attacked? Do you idly stand by and let you (your country) be run over? I think most people would agree that one should put up a fight. Assuming that you would disagree on the use of violence even in this scenario what about when you are beaten (conquered) and the winner starts taking advantage of you (your people)? Surely you'll agree that there is a line at which point a human being must draw a line in the sand and say "Enough is enough!".

    I don't like Friere phrasing, but it seems to me that it is generally what I am talking about here. Why do you disagree? I think this is where the heart of the issue may lie.

    * * *

    Some other thoughts on the subject:


    Yes, I think an argument could be made (fairly easily) that the US was the initial aggressor in the current conflict with terrorism. The question becomes then what is the appropriate response? If kid A shoves kid B at the playground would it be appropriate for kid B to shoot kid A? An argument could be made just as easily that the response to the initial US aggression was too strong and that the US response is thus justified.

    However this brings on the interesting question of whether aggression can be justified as self-defense. This argument is all too easy to make. Here is a simple example: what happens when a nation is downstream from an important river and the nation upstream is siphoning off too much water for its own purposes? Sure, you negotiate and do what you can, but ultimately if the nation upstream is not willing to budge and your nation is being held back as a result there may not be another way.

     
  • At 11:05 PM, Blogger nell said…

    Ohh, tough questions, and I have no answers. What I wish were possible is likely to never be so. So, now I try to rationalize/come up with situations where violence is 'ok.' I think on one inner level I will never agree with wholesale violence like war. But - but - there are clearly cases where it was unavoidable and to prevent further atrocities from taking place, one must fight back. If I, personally, were attacked by someone, it is my hope that I would fight back. I'd lose, but I'd try :) On the other hand, war does not discriminate between the guilty and the innocent and it is, apparently, extremely easy to be 'mistaken' when one tries to find the culprit in an international arena for an international incident. Not only is our current war a mistake, very avoidable, and unnecessary, it is also full of atrocities. This in my mind is unacceptable regardless of the cause. As the US we are damn lucky we haven't fought a war (against a foreign nation) on our own lands since - um - rusty history either the War of 1812, when we were 'invaded' by Britain, or the U.S. - Mexican war in the mid 1800's where I think Texas was a battlefield. I am too tired to look up all the correct facts (which, regarding history, is very hard to get since it depends from which viewpoint the history comes by...) but I think you get my drift. I digress. I think we (Americans) are too detached from the violence in our cozy little homes in our nice little suburbs, and we don't understand the harsh realities of war. We are too eager for it, and too justified in going off to some other nation and 'fixing' all their problems. It would be different if the wars were fought on our turf; we would probably do anything to avoid them. I see I digress again: my original intention was to claim that the use of torture should never be condoned for any reason. That is something I can unequivocally support. War is never good; it is rarely yet occasionally necessary; a victim of war is usually someone who gets caught up in the situation. The act of violence committed on him or her is usually not intended to hurt that person other then as a means of getting past him or her. Torture is designed to hurt the individual. And I think I'll leave it at that, I'm not feeling very lucid at the moment, I apologize if I'm not making any sense.

     

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